You Were Made for a Time Like This W/ Matt Chandler!

What's up? Hey guys, come on. Two brothers. It's like a TLC show. A lot less scrubs and waterfalls. Look, I just exhaled for the first time and it's a great relief. That was like... It's intense. It was intense. How's it going? Man, it's going great. It's uh, the week before Christmas so things are starting to Well, they don't really slow down, but um, they're slower ish than they normally are. So I'm grateful for that. Is there really Christmas in Texas though? Let's be honest. Um, you know what, it's funny that you should say that because my wife texted me really frustrated by the fact that it's like seventy-five degrees here today. But it's not normal. We will hit 20s. In fact, we got some of y'all's weather last year. It nearly killed the whole story. Yeah, I saw that. That's good. Negative sixteen which is nothing for you guys, but literally our houses aren't built for that. Our, your one plow was like on overkill on over. Yeah. I was in Dallas like five years ago. There was an ice storm. You were there. That's right, Ben. We got stuck in Dallas for like five days for a little ice storm that would have been nothing for us. Yeah, we just don't have the gear. Nope. Y'all bought it all up. Yeah, we did. In the land of 100,000 lakes or whatever it is. I don't want the gear, man. No. You can have the gear. We'll take the weather. We'll call it even. We actually spent a lot of time in New Zealand growing up during the high school years. So for us, it was also the beach and barbecues for Christmas. So I'm all into that. No, no judgment. It's not bad. No, no, it's good. Well, let's, let's get into this. Uh, I'll, I'll start us off. Um, so we mentioned this earlier to you, Ben and I were both born and raised in Amsterdam and Netherlands, and we experienced firsthand, uh, What it means to live in a post-Christian context. And you see in Europe, you see these big, beautiful cathedrals and they're dead and empty on Sunday. And our parents were missionaries there and they, they end up founding this mission organization called Steiger. And it's, it's all about mobilizing followers of Jesus to reach young people who wouldn't walk into a church. Today we're active in about a hundred cities around the world, including here in the U S and what's clear to us here in our country, whether it's the rise of the religiously unaffiliated or. The acceptance of sexual ethics that are not in alignment with the Bible or all sorts of things, it's clear that we live in a post-Christian country and many people's view of the church, what once was positive, now it's Apathetic, if not outright hostile. And so our question to you, being that you're in the Bible Belt of Texas, how have you experienced this post-Christian cultural shift and how has this impacted your approach in reaching people today? Yeah, so great, great questions. Um, I think the way that we experience them in, um, in, in Dallas, where, where I am, and it's funny because even Dallas would have, depending on where you are in Dallas, maybe even a different subculture. Uh, but for where I am, um, what I, I think the two ways this plays itself out, one is in, um, kind of an increasing skepticism. Uh, of the church and of Christians. Um, so it really was where, you know, at one point we were just this harmless, weird people and, and now we're a bit more threatening, even, even as the church really isn't making demands of anybody. Uh, and, and yet the, the narrative is that we are trying to force when, when in reality, we're not at all. So there's that kind of skepticism, uh, And, and then I think the second thing is in attendance patterns where, uh, even people who would say they're devoted followers of Jesus Christ, or I think they're coming twice a month now. As opposed to maybe it maybe might even be less than that, you know, in the last bit of data I saw where people who really are following after Jesus are coming like. Once, uh, once a month. And so what, what that does in the South then is your Christmas Eve's and Easter's get smaller. So where, you know, your Christmas Eve's and Easter's are those kind of big, you're gonna have the most religious lost people ever in the, in the pews that service. You know, when I first got here twenty years ago, you know, we were doing like eight, nine services to try to hold everybody who would want to come. And, and this year we'll still do four or five. It's still good. But, but that's thousands of people over the last twenty years who, who just Stopped coming on Christmas and Easter. So, so that's a way that it shows itself here and increased skepticism and then maybe attendance patterns, especially on Christmas and Easter. So doesn't it like part of that is the, that has to change then our whole approach. So kind of a generation or so, twenty thirty years ago. You had the Billy Graham model or the Christmas and Easter model which is, you know, I'm open and have a positive view of the church so I'll show up on Christmas or I'll come to the Christian event and And I'm open. So it's a bring your friend, come and see model of evangelism. Yeah. It feels like that is becoming, it's not like that's gone, but that's less and less relevant to a larger group of people. So how is that? Shaped your way of engaging people that won't walk into a church. Well, I think the first thing that we wanted to do is, yeah, great. Invite your lost friends to come and see what we do when we gather. But what I want you to do actually is practice radical hospitality around your dinner table and other things like one of the more successful things we've ever done and just successful. I'm using that in kind of spiritual language. Is the month of October, some people do it year round, but organizationally as a church, the month of October, we spend every, um, week that month prayer, walking our neighborhoods and just praying blessings over the houses, um, And then if a neighbor walks out, uh, our, our men and women are able to just go, man, we were just praying a blessing over your house, man. We want to see God do amazing things in your life. Anything in particular we can pray for you about. And then that leads into, you know, kind of a, a, a relationship that if it, if it didn't exist before now is actually kicked off. But I want God to bless you. I want to pray over you. I want to see amazing things in your life. And, and, and some people, they, they just do that year round now where when their family goes for a walk in the evenings, They're just praying over the homes on their neighborhoods. And then we would gather at the end of October in parks around the city just to worship. Um, and, and that's another kind of a, It's got a lower bar of entry to come to the park with your kids and let them run around while we're doing worship. And so I honestly think radical hospitality and things like that Are going to be key for the places we're heading in the next ten years. Yeah. What do you think keeps people from engaging in that way? You know, what do you see as the major threats or, or what are the things you're just trying to push or lies you're trying to preach against? When it comes to getting people, you know, myself included, to get out there and to practice more of what you're talking about. Yeah, so I think people are afraid because they feel like they don't have the answers. And I think that's paralyzing. Um, that I'm going to get asked a question that I don't know, or this is going to go bad. And then I'm gonna have this awkward relationship with the guy across the street from me because he got super offended when I finally broached, um, the, the Jesus conversation. And so what we're trying to kind of just help people understand is, hey, let's have a surface level conversation that leads to a serious conversation that leads to a spiritual conversation. And as you kind of transverse that, by the time you get to the spiritual conversation, there's going to be some trust that's been built up. And, and it's, it's in the framework of that trust that people are going to be able to hear. And man, I was in a, uh, there was a, there's a. Op-ed writer for the New York Times, author, um, I guess intellectual, I guess that's what David Brooks would be, um, who has given his life to Christ just a few years ago. And I had an opportunity to ask him. I mean, this is a guy that read the Bible. He knew all the arguments. He, he, he could find the answers if he wanted them. And I said, tell me what, what led to you finally. Surrendering your life to Christ. And he said, when I saw the moral beauty in the lives of my Christian friends, It drew me in. And, and so I'm, I'm trying to help people understand they don't have to have all the answers. And if you could ask a question you don't know the answer to, you just have to say, I, man, I don't know. I'm happy to. Uh, you know, walk with you as we try to find an answer to that. I can ask pastors at my church. I know guys who are experts in this that just trying to get across. You don't have to have all the answers, nor do you even have to be an extrovert. You don't have to be a people person to do this. Do you feel like sometimes that fear of not having the answers, uh, it motivates us in the wrong direction in the sense that we think, okay, I gotta arm myself with all of the information And it becomes less about allowing the Holy Spirit to make dead people alive and more about maybe God can use me to make a dumb person smart. Oh, you're right. And, and, and the problem with that is that it really isn't about them. Yeah. Right? It's kind of Christian virtue signaling. It's more about, I know all the answers to the things you might say. And you know what? Let me get those in there before you even say them. And let me show you how I got my intellectual life buttoned up. And it's really kind of detached from the love of the person, right? Yeah. Yeah. I, I heard a, I forgot where I read it. It's Francis Schaeffer, but someone asked Schaeffer, um, one time, if you had an hour to tell someone about Jesus, what would you tell them? And Schaefer said I would listen for fifty-five minutes so I would have something to say with the last five. And so just the idea of they really aren't projects. Uh, they, they really aren't scalps. These really are people that we need to intently enter in with in, in life. So let's do a lot of listening. Um, and, and then from there. Let's, let's kind of have that. I I've said a lot to the village about just embracing the twenty seconds of awkwardness. Yep. And that's it. I mean, it's twenty seconds of awkwardness and then it's over. And it's usually not even that long. Yeah. I mean, it just depends on how you do it. I'm apparently slower at getting through the awkward. I'm definitely more like a minute. I kind of hang in the awkwardness a little bit longer than I should be apparently. That's cool. Oh, man. I think part of it is recognizing that people are more open and more hungry. We have a culture that has an epidemic of loneliness. Absolutely. Absolutely. And anxiety. I mean, Jesus offers the ultimate relationship with our Creator and with the Church. Jesus offers peace that transcends understanding. That's right. Like the answer to the greatest felt need of a, of a culture. And so I feel like a lot of that, the challenge for us, I think as Christians is, And an American Christian in particular is we're so busy and we're so overscheduled that I don't have the time to interact with you anymore. To connect with you. And so I feel like for us, a lot of times we talk about, it's almost more about a want to than a how to, and that we need people's hearts to be broken. Yeah. For people, before they're going to sacrifice their time and get uncomfortable with the awkwardness, it stems from a heart of brokenness, which starts in repentance because you can't change your heart, right? So I feel like sometimes we get into the how and not the heart, right? Yeah. Um, how do you, how do you deal with the heart before you deal with the how? So what I want to try to do is provoke, um, the men and women at the village church, one to get. Um, a better understanding of what's actually going on right now, the enchanted nature of the world, uh, the principalities and powers, good versus evil, uh, that's waging right now. And, and to actually join in on like, if you really hate evil, you really hate darkness. You probably need to mean less and pray and share the gospel more. Yep. What I'm trying to do is just provoke them with the reality that Jesus didn't die on the cross for people who might get saved. He died for those who will and we get invited in to go share the gospel with every man and woman that we come across and and know and trust that the Holy Spirit is going to open the eyes of those who are spiritually blind. And we get to participate in it. That's crazy. And, um, so, so that's the way I've kind of approached. Otherwise I'm drive by guilting them and I just don't want to guilt them. No. And it doesn't work. No, it doesn't. I mean, it might, they might go out and do it once and then, but that's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a heart that treasures Jesus above all things. And out of that treasuring heart hurts for those who are far from him. And so that, that's where I'm trying. Let me try to lift your eyes and show you how beautiful Jesus is and, and orient your life around that beauty and his presence. And then I think honestly, it flows more naturally out of that. You're far more apt to go for your walk at night and pray over houses if you've just been, your heart's fully alive in Jesus, right? Right. If it's sin management, it's really hard to get sin management to do anything other than be miserable. Right. Yeah. And, and this relates to my sort of the next big question we wanted to, to ask, which is that I also think there has to be this, this singular love for and devotion to Jesus. Because I think we've become very good at muddying the waters and not necessarily knowing where our nationality or our politics end and where our Bible starts. We hardly know the difference. Um, I was re-watching the, the Vice video that, the interview of you on Vice that was really gripping and compelling. Uh, but then also a sermon that you gave in August titled Do Not Quench Him. In both cases, there's a heart that I feel from you and I've always felt from you, which is this desire to differentiate Jesus from the stuff that we just so naturally want to add to him. Um, and I know things have been so hard for pastors, especially in the last few years. Because more and more and more people are like, I don't really care what your, your theology is. I want to know what your stance is on vaccines. I want to know what your stance is on race reconciliation or fill in the blanks. And so my question is, What hills do we die on? What stuff do we let go? Just easy stuff, right? Sure. Um, how do we navigate that? Because of course, it's not just blinders on. I'm indifferent to the problems of the world. No. But man, you can just get sucked into ideological tribes to the degree which I think hurts the heart of Jesus and makes our witness very ineffective. So unpack that very, very easy question for me. Come on. Well, the best I can do... Is say over and over and over again, I want to have doctrinal conversations rather than ideological conversations. And what I mean by that is the way I would define ideology is, um, A way of salvation that is different than the gospel of Jesus Christ. So do we have issues around ethnic harmony in this country? Absolutely not. The Bible teaches that you're going to have those issues. The Bible also teaches that Christ has overcome those. So people who adopt an ideology, the solution to this is It's something other than Jesus Christ. Well, now we've got tension. But I'm not saying just preach the gospel either, right? So what I want to be able to do is... Have a doctrinal conversation about partiality. I want to use biblical words, uh, about ethnic harmony, uh, I want to show what Jesus did in Ephesians two I want to also show that we're, we're men and women that have a tendency to shift back to, um, Sameness and, um, dominance and, and man, the perfect example of that is Peter who, are you kidding me? Like he's the guy, he goes to Cornelius's house and, He, the Gentiles come into the kingdom through Peter's obedience. And yet Paul then has to rebuke it, uh, because he slid back into, um, kind of a, An understanding of sameness is better than, than, you know, or, or division is better. So instead of going, no, we're one new man, right? One new man, Koinos, brand new, never been done before. Every tribe, tongue, and nation on earth, sons of the living God, new people is what Paul's going to argue. Like, Peter forgets. He drifts. And he won't eat with the Gentiles because he's a little embarrassed by them. He actually almost deceives Barnabas. And Barnabas is like a human golden retriever. Uh, I mean, he's just always happy to see you can throw the ball with him all day. And even Barnabas is getting hardened by Peter's take. So you've got Barnabas. Who's ridiculously encouraging, optimist, you know, totally enneagram seven, you know, just wants to have a good time. And then you've got Peter who was used by God. For the breaking in of the kingdom among the Gentiles. And, and he drifts and in his drifting, he almost deceives Barnabas. So I just want to have that coverage. So are we, are we guilty of what C.S. Lewis would call chronological snobbery? Are we better than them? Are we different than them? When we read the story, are we always the hero in the scriptures or is the Bible pushing weight or putting weight on us to consider that we might be capable of, in fact, maybe even guilty of some of these same things? So I want to have that conversation with my Bible, which is a doctrinal conversation, not an ideological one. Let me tell you how we're going to fix this. Um, but let me tell you how slowly God transforms human beings into one new man. That's good. Um, I think the issue of theology and ideology, it doesn't just affect church unity, which I think it's having a massive negative effect, but it also has a negative effect in our ability to reach people who are different than us. Absolutely. Right? Because we see those liberals or whatever in a certain light and our love for them and our ability to reach them is just gone to the point, and I've seen this, we do a lot in various forms of evangelism and discipleship. And we'll, you'll come across someone with an ideology and a political view that would be the, the enemy of many people that would go to church, right? Like it's, and, and what I find interesting is that So often we want to argue the politics rather than the real heart issue because what I find so interesting about people that are politically active is what they're saying is the world is not as it ought to be. That's right. That's exactly right. And so in a sense, we can say, that's awesome. I agree with you. In fact, I applaud that you're not just willing to stand idly by, but you want to do something about it. And I agree with you. Now, the problem is I don't think that any political system is going to Fix the heart. Yeah. Right. So I feel like we need to get people to get it. The, the, the ideological idolatry hurts our ability to witness to a lost world. Yeah. How have you experienced that? And how are you challenging that? Well, here, and let me introduce this to the conversation because I think it's really pertinent. I think we've got a massive discipleship issue and what's just happened is That's been exposed. I think we live in a day that is disenchanted. So Christians forget that there's an enemy behind our enemy. And so they lack the capacity when there's no principalities and powers. They lack the capacity to love a person who's been blinded by the God of this world and have any compassion for them, any love for them. There's literally no understanding of spiritual realities by and large in mainstream evangelical thought. A lot of, a lot of good Bible study, a lot of good kind of let's get together and sing. Very little teaching, very little understanding of what legitimate spiritual warfare is and how we ought to see the cosmos as being in conflict. And because there's an enemy behind my enemy that, that far left thing that I might consider crazy. There's a man or woman there that has been bound in spiritual darkness. And because I'm in Texas, let me say this, that far right, absolute whack job. There's a spiritual reality there. And I, I need to, as a man of God, refuse to hate either one of them. Yep. Yeah. And see them as those who have been blinded by the God of this age who are in bondage. And now I can, and by the way, and I was there. Yeah. Before the Lord rescued. Yeah. Yes. And, and now that I've got that. Now I'm equipped as a disciple of Jesus Christ to love my enemy, to live in a countercultural way, to have a deep compassion for those who are far from God while not treating them like subhumans. Yeah, I mean, I love what you said about recognizing your own sinfulness and need for Jesus. I mean, how can we start from any other place than that? And I think largely it's isolation. Right? It's so much easier to hate and to characterize something you don't know. Right? And I feel like, again, back to my point about Uh, we, we feel like arming ourselves with all this information, reading all these books, listening to all these podcasts. It's more really about us and protecting ourselves. Um, but when you put a face To these ideologies, you recognize, as Aaron said, that these are people. Deceived, certainly, but you don't come at them as these objects or behind a computer screen. Don't you think that so much of this, even related to teaching, Would be so enriched if we would get outside of our bubbles because what happens is you go out there and you start to live what you're reading. And then you go back to the word and you go, I need to, I need to know this. I need to equip myself. And it's this beautiful cycle. But until we get out of our bubbles and until we are not just surrounded by people who look and think like us, it's kind of natural that we're going to head in that direction. Yeah, I think you're right. And I think genuine curiosity about the person, even beyond their ideology, I think is that that's what Like, how, have you ever, like, seen somebody land in a place where, like, how in the world could they possibly believe that? Well, there's a way to have that thought that condemns them. And there's a way that kind of provokes, like, Oh, so liberalism's a mental illness. What, what happened there? Like, like how could someone embrace this ideology that seems so clearly Dark to me so clearly, um, doesn't lead to human flourishing, even if we take it out of the, are you a Christian or not? But seems destructive to culture in any way I look at it. So, so what does it look like to enter into a conversation of curiosity where you're actually trying to learn something and then along the way, Have a clear ability, I think, to share the gospel in a way that they might understand. So I love when the rich young ruler comes to Jesus, right? It's just the craziest story. It just shows you how bad Jesus was at evangelism, our understanding of it. So rich young ruler comes to Jesus and it's a softballist question I've ever heard. What, what must a man do to be born again? Like I, nobody listening to this had a lost person walk up to them and go, Hey, tell me, Hey, do you happen to know how you must be born again? And, but you know, is Jesus about to lay justification on him? Is he about to go new create? What, what gospel metaphors he's going to use? Well, he doesn't. He says, well, you know the law. Do the law. Well, then the guy's like, well, I've done all the law. I mean, I've done it since I was a kid. And then Jesus says, yeah, but you lack this thing. And so Jesus is actually going after the heart of the man. In a way that's not, I've got a packaged answer for you. But, but you're a, you're a man with a background in a story. You're a man in a given moment in history. Let me get some of that. Pull it to the forefront of your mind. And now let's have the conversation about what eternity is, what the kingdom is. It's good. I think this maybe leads into our next question. I think one of the challenges from American cultural, Christian cultural history is that we kind of are, like, often the question is asked, who's the next Billy Graham? Sure. Or who's the next this or that. And part of that is because we're hoping for someone to do the work for us. Sure. And there has been a professionalization of Christianity where I pay the pastor to do the work rather than like the mobilization of Yeah. The church as a whole to do the work and, and basically cost me something instead of, you know, I can't, I get someone else to do something. And so I think one of the challenges that we face in our Christian culture is that we are looking to Christian celebrity. Yeah. To, with a platform, if we could just find, you know, and it plays out politically too. If we can find our hero, the guy that's gonna save us. You know, and it becomes idolatry in its own way. How is Christian celebrity and I guess it's a little bit of different take on the same question and the kind of allure of a platform and followers and influencers and all that kind of stuff. How has that played into, you know, where we are today in Christianity? So, you know, there's always been, you know, Christian celebrities. It's just, we've never not had it. Gosh, you even have it in the Bible. You know, there are good. Ah, yeah. Peter's my guy. Really? Okay, because Apollos is mine. Y'all must not have, y'all must have not downloaded Paul's latest, right? So there's always been This thing where men want another mediator besides the one they've been given in Jesus. And, and so there has to be in those of us who have been given platform. A stewarding well of that platform that seeks in every way possible to make much of Jesus to empower the saints for the work of ministry. Rather than hoarding ministry for the sake of the brand. And that's what I would tell people to look out for. When you're looking, is this, is this celebrity? Is it toxic or is it not toxic? Because honestly, sometimes it has less to do with the person and has everything to do with the crowd. But the way I try to look at things, because I know the crowd's going to do, like, if I just, if I'm in front of 20,000 people and I'm like, Christian celebrity's toxic, you shouldn't do it. They'll love me even more. I'll get more followers for it, not less. The irony, right? Man, he's telling Christian celebrities off. I love it. And I wrote about it in my new book. That's right. I'm going to get a tat of Chandler on my, you know. Wait, you too? Again. But yeah, it's of me. So me having one of me is fine. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Carry on. I think so. So what I'm looking at, what I love to see, let me say it that way, is show me a God that's been given platform but leverages that platform to help Christians discover that. And then deploy how God's made them and gifted them. Show me somebody who builds a church that's a disciple making church, not just an awesome Sunday morning having church. And I'll show you like The, the, the, the place where the next generation of leaders are coming for from and the next move of God is going to pour itself out. That's awesome. Man, man, this is so good. And I think one of the paradigm shifts that we need to, to live out in American Christian culture is that the church is not just the Sunday morning service. The church is the people. Yeah. And so the church, and so even that affects evangelism and discipleship because discipleship doesn't start when someone commits to a local church. It starts when they meet a follower of Jesus in the world. Yeah. And so it's so much of that kind of shift and how can we mobilize the army of God to do the work. So man, I love what you're doing and it's so encouraged by your voice. So thank you. Yeah. Well, man, I appreciate that. Glad you guys are mobilizing and sending them out and we're with you in it, bro. In, in our day. Yes. Lord willing. Is there anything that, that you would like us to. Tell the people about tattoos or books or, uh, or anything of the like. No, I mean, I think the encouragement I'm trying to let everyone know who will listen to me right now is like, this is our moment in history. Yeah. And I know it's dark and I know it's scary and I, but you were made for this. Yeah. Like you, you, not, not the three of us, right? That's too easy. You, uniquely wired by God, Psalm 139, uniquely placed by God, Acts seventeen You, not us, you. For this moment in human history, you are, as crazy as it's going to sound to you, you are God's big plan for your neighborhood, for your workplace, for For your family, for your roommates, for your friend, you. You are. It's not Spurgeon. It's not Kuiper. It's not Calvin. It's you. And I know that might feel like a crushing weight, but you have been built for this. And if you'll step into it, I promise you the eradication of boredom from your life, the eradication of that, you know, endless scrolling that ends up making you just feel blah, you have right in front of you. The greatest adventure the universe will ever know. Did you know the Bible says that the universe looks at us and shudders with great horror? Like you are caught up in the cosmic ultimate reality. You are. And if you would give yourself over to it and be brave and walk in courage, you're going to see unbelievable things in your days, in your life. Don't shrink back. I know it's a little hostile out there right now. It's a little scary. Be bold. Be prayerful. Press into Jesus. This is our moment. It's nobody else's. It's our turn. We want to be faithful here in our little run. So God bless you, man. Go get them. Oh, I love that. I love that. Uh, how can we pray for you in this season? I'm sure you deal with all sorts of pressure. How can we pray for you? Uh, you know, Lauren and I are just in a unique season. Our first born's about to move out, start college. And, uh, that's awesome and awful. Yeah. And, um, yeah. And so man, you can pray for just my family dynamics as that all happens. And then things at the village are incredible. Uh, so I, I mean, keep praying for us as we try to be a faithful light here in the South, uh, Um. Man, and I'm, I love that I get to do, I'm still, you know, Christ saved me right before my 18th birthday. I still hadn't quite got over it. Oh, man. Can I pray for you right now? Is that cool? Please. Yeah. Jesus, I thank you so much for Matt and Lauren and his whole family. And I pray. For just, Lord, I pray that the best days would be ahead. And I don't mean that in an earthly sense. God, I mean that first that Matt would experience intimacy with you in the seasons to come like he has never experienced. Lord, because I'm convinced that it starts there. Let it be in the quiet place. Let him know your word like never before. Let him be anointed like never before. Let him be more like you than ever before. Deal with the things that need to be dealt with that you could use him Just in extraordinary ways, Lord, more than he can possibly even think or imagine, Lord God, I pray you'd protect him, protect his Family. Guide him through this season, Lord. As someone with a five, three, and one-year-old, I can't imagine being there. I know it'll happen fast, but the season that he is in, give him peace that you are with his kids more than he ever could be, Lord. And, and I, I sure he prays like crazy, but I, I just pray that you would, you would watch out for them. Yeah. Give them boring testimonies, Lord. Yeah. They just know you're real, they follow you, and they go all in. Let that be their story. Let the legacy continue, Lord. I know that that's the greatest gift, not books or big churches or anything. I know if he could see his kids loving you, serving you, that's it. That's the goal. And so let that be real. Protect them, protect this family, and just use Matt more powerfully in the future than he's been used to date, Lord. And so we bless him and the church that he stewards, Lord. Let it be amazing. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. Thanks brother. All right. All right. We're going to hit this little outro video and, uh, we'd love to say goodbye to you real briefly when it's done. If you're cool with that. Perfect. Yeah. And then that's it for those listening. We'll talk to you next time. Peace. Come on. Peace out. All right. Well, there you have it. Hope you enjoyed that. Uh, on a personal note, that was a lot of fun for me. Uh, again, for those who watched that or who continued with us and wondered who that other goon was, that was my brother, Aaron Pierce. He's the executive director of our mission. Uh, And a bit of a goon. And a goon. But who, you know, in the end of the day, aren't we all goons? Right? Right? Uh, yeah. So that was fun. Um, so encouraging. And honestly, I was just so blown away by Matt's humility. Like, you know, here's a guy who's... Pretty big name in the Christian world, but from the very first second that we talked to him, even before the recording started, he was just so chill and you can tell that his heart is about Jesus, that he wants to see people saved, that he wants to be faithful to the word of God. And so I hope that encouraged you. And I hope you take seriously that message that he had for all of us, which is that the time is now and God wants to use you. This is not about special people doing special things. God has a plan for all of us. And that really is so in lockstep, right, David? We always say. Well, and like you said, it's no accident you're born, you're born now. Right. You know, you've been put on this planet at this time. And it's because God has something for you to do in the situation we're in now, so you can have confidence that you're here at the right time in history to do something that has eternal consequences. You know, those good works in advance. That God created us for, but you have to, you have to say, okay, I'm doing it. I'm taking those steps. Yeah. Yep. All right. Well, just to give you a sense for what's coming up, uh, we are, the next episode that will be coming out is an interview with Brian Zond. He is, uh. Pastor, author, thinker, uh, we've had him on before. Uh, he's written several really great books, but the book we're going to be talking about specifically is When Everything Is On Fire. Faith forged from the ashes. Uh, we had a conversation not that long ago about deconstruction in this book. Digs into that about what it is and why it might just be one of the most important things we can do. Uh, he is a, a man who does, uh, not shy away from the controversial, but I really resonate with his heart. Uh, and so you're not going to want to miss this conversation. Uh, so check that out. That'll be coming out next week. Uh, otherwise again, if you go to steiger.org slash spiritual conversations, uh, let that be your new year. Again, before we go, uh, if you go to steiger.org slash spiritual conversations, uh, you can take hold of those resources and use that tool to start a conversation with someone in your life who is far from Jesus. Um. Let that be your New Year's resolution. Why not, right? Why not start a bunch of spiritual conversations in a non-religious way and see God move through that and lead people towards a relationship with Him? Uh, that is a tool that we, we want you to use. Please use it and, uh, watch God move through it. And we really believe that he will. All right. Last thing before we go, David hit the people with the three R's. You need to rate, review, and subscribe to our podcast. And if you do, we will read what you say online. Whether it's good or bad, whether it's positive or negative, whether it's up or down, we will read it, oh yes, and we will not shy away from any kind of constructive or destructive conversations you want to have with us. That's right. And remember, in the words of David, balance sucks. That's all from us, the Provoke and Inspire podcast. My name is Ben. This is Luke. That's David. We love you. We will talk to you next time. Oh, yes, that's it. Peace. Thank you for listening to the provoke and inspire podcast. If you enjoy this content, consider leaving us a rating and a review on iTunes. Got questions for the guys? Send them to provokeandinspire at steiger.org. Thanks for listening.